Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

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Jack Winter
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby Jack Winter » Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:05 am

There is also the aspect that if you record with fx then it's done, no need to mess with the fx later on :)
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby omer666 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:10 am

I think it mostly comes down to what sounds better. Most of the time, pedals are inferior to dedicated studio hardware or plugins, but they may have a sound that your like and that you may want to capture.

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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby jiff41 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:14 am

Jack Winter wrote:There is also the aspect that if you record with fx then it's done, no need to mess with the fx later on :)


It frees you up to think of other things?, think how many great records have been made with the FX on the Amp or ? but committed @ the recording stage & if it's not enough add more or re-record something different?.
A lot of time is wasted now with shall I do this or that? ( Dither ye NOT!) :roll:
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby Jack Winter » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:46 pm

jiff41 wrote:It frees you up to think of other things?, think how many great records have been made with the FX on the Amp or ? but committed @ the recording stage & if it's not enough add more or re-record something different?.
A lot of time is wasted now with shall I do this or that? ( Dither ye NOT!) :roll:


Yes exactly, it's done and dusted, no need for any navel gazing regarding what fx and amp sim the guitars get. Plenty of other opportunities to do that with the rest of the recorded tracks anyways, which really is somewhat of a time killer.

I'd argue that it also forces you as a recording engineer / producer to make decisions and then to live with them, which furthers your craft and your thinking about what you are doing. Probably most of us could also go back and rerecord the track if it really is inappropriate for the song / arrangement.
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby CrocoDuck » Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:32 pm

In the past I enjoyed doing both of them at the very same time.

Guitar output -> split the signal in 2 with a buffer -> here we now have identical 2 signals: 1 and 2.

Connect 1 to the analog chain which terminates with the amp, mic the amp, connect the mic to one input of the soundcard.
Connect 2 to another input of the soundcard, without any additional processing.

Then, record the two channels on two different tracks simultaneously.

I think this gives the best of both worlds. You keep your cool analog sound recorded by mic, but you also have the raw unprocessed DI version of it to play with. You can then mix and cross-fade the two, process them differently in the DAW to get any sort of cool thing.

In some mixes I left a bit of unprocessed guitar with some delay on. It increased a ton the "presence" of the sound.

I do something very similar for acoustic guitars. I record simultaneously all their electric outputs (if any) and then also by microphone, and mix them all together,

I also got used to do the same with my Gibson ES125. Record simultaneously the guitar pickup out and a microphone in the front.

The more the better: it is easier to discard something you don't need than try to work around something missing.

I would recommend this approach.
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby omer666 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:42 pm

CrocoDuck wrote:In the past I enjoyed doing both of them at the very same time.

Guitar output -> split the signal in 2 with a buffer -> here we now have identical 2 signals: 1 and 2.

Connect 1 to the analog chain which terminates with the amp, mic the amp, connect the mic to one input of the soundcard.
Connect 2 to another input of the soundcard, without any additional processing.

Very clever! In fact this technique has been in use for quite some time for re-amping purposes, but in this case it means you can almost use your track as an FX buss. Quite inspiring!

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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby CrocoDuck » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:49 pm

42low wrote:Several interesting arguments to consider. Thanks for the replies.
Jack's "make decisions and live with them" widened my eyes slightly too. It's so true, although sometimes one needs other oppinions to choose.

But CrocoDuck's approach is very interesting too. :lol:
Now i wonder. Could the Send at the back of the amp be used to plug in, while mic-ing the front speakers? The Send gives a clear out signal, isn't it? And doesn't turn off the front speakers.


Yes, that's another way. If your amp has a line out you can use that too. In fact, I did exactly that for a long time early in my music days. Make sure the output of the amplifier is indeed a line output, and not some speaker output or some kind of high power output (that might fry your interface).

You could arrange for even a more interesting chain, where you split in 3: at the guitar and then at the amp. If you can do it, I would do that. Collecting simultaneous different recordings of the same thing is a good way to enhance the richness and spaciousness of a recording when you mix them together. In fact, for example, there are recording engineers that record instruments or singers with many mics in the same room, and then apply gates, filters and mix them all.
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby CrocoDuck » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:05 pm

Probably you can check the manual of your amp. Most amps I should have the send out and return before the final stage, so right after the pre-amp. It should be OK, but you might need to be careful with gain to avoid clipping in the soundcard. What model is your amp?
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby CrocoDuck » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:20 pm

I think that for amplifiers headphone out, line out and send are all safe outputs to connect external gear to. In fact, they are designed for that. The problem with the send output, if that is the output you have, is that the electronics are designed to put an effect chain in that, that then gets back into the return socket. As you plug a jack into the send, the internal signal chain in the amp will be interrupted until you get the signal back to the return in some way.
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby tavasti » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:37 am

CrocoDuck wrote:Guitar output -> split the signal in 2 with a buffer -> here we now have identical 2 signals: 1 and 2.

Connect 1 to the analog chain which terminates with the amp, mic the amp, connect the mic to one input of the soundcard.
Connect 2 to another input of the soundcard, without any additional processing.

I'd like to record this way. Any suggestions for low-budget signal splitters? I don't even know what such device would be called.

I have my guitar connected to Digitech multieffect, sometimes some additional effects in front of it. I don't even have real guitar amp.
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby CrocoDuck » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:11 am

tavasti wrote:I'd like to record this way. Any suggestions for low-budget signal splitters? I don't even know what such device would be called.


Being a lazy guy, I used my micropog as a splitter:

https://www.ehx.com/products/micro-pog

That's my favorite pedal ever together with the bass crybaby by dunlop. It has two outputs, one is dry. I usually split the signal with that, as my micropog is pretty usually the first pedal in my chain (not really a complex chain: micropog and wah, and maybe the octafuzz I designed and built, placed somewhere where I feel it fits most).

I don't really know about any reasonably cheap splitter around. The reason is that time ago I designed 2 or 3 guitar stompboxes, so I got a sort of basic understanding of audio electronics. In the case I need a splitter, I would build my own for perhaps 10-15 euros of materials, the most expensive of which would be the alloy chassis. I would use a quad opamp for that, the same design I used for the internal buffers of my pedals. If you are interested in the DIY approach, I could try to dig out some schematic.
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby tavasti » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:21 am

CrocoDuck wrote:
tavasti wrote:I'd like to record this way. Any suggestions for low-budget signal splitters? I don't even know what such device would be called.


Being a lazy guy, I used my micropog as a splitter:

I have spare Digitech RP-50, which has stereo output. Maybe I should try how badly it spoils sound.

CrocoDuck wrote:In the case I need a splitter, I would build my own for perhaps 10-15 euros of materials, the most expensive of which would be the alloy chassis. I would use a quad opamp for that, the same design I used for the internal buffers of my pedals. If you are interested in the DIY approach, I could try to dig out some schematic.

In theory, I might, but in reality, my skills on electronics are awful. Can't create pcb, can't solder, and don't have proper tools for those.
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby tavasti » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:34 am

tavasti wrote:
CrocoDuck wrote:Guitar output -> split the signal in 2 with a buffer -> here we now have identical 2 signals: 1 and 2.

Connect 1 to the analog chain which terminates with the amp, mic the amp, connect the mic to one input of the soundcard.
Connect 2 to another input of the soundcard, without any additional processing.

I'd like to record this way. Any suggestions for low-budget signal splitters? I don't even know what such device would be called.

Bit of googling and reading, most di-boxes have 2 outputs, one for guitar effects / amps, and one for mixer / audio interface. So price range starts from this? https://www.thomann.de/gb/millenium_die ... passiv.htm

I've been searching with wrong term, searched 'guitar signal splitter' :-o
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby CrocoDuck » Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:42 am

I think that DI box will work nicely. According to the schematic it reports, input and output jacks are wired together. So, it will essentially behave as a straight wire from input jack to output jack. Then, the XLR input is served by a transformer, which adapts impedance and makes the signal balanced, which is good to transfer the signal to a soundcard or mixer. It is also good that it has the ground lift. That might help a lot of you have any power line hum. Looks like a nice little thing.

I have one of these, which is more expensive, but active. Never had any use for the cabinet simulation. This is another way to get the job done.

https://www.musictri.be/Categories/Behr ... 00/p/P0137
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Re: Elec Guitar recording, how 2 effects??

Postby tramp » Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:01 pm

tavasti wrote:Bit of googling and reading, most di-boxes have 2 outputs, one for guitar effects / amps, and one for mixer / audio interface. So price range starts from this? https://www.thomann.de/gb/millenium_die ... passiv.htm

Regarding DI-Boxes, I'm using a Gatt DIP-01 and been fully satisfied with it. It's a passive Filter like the one in your link above, only difference is the additional Attenuator for the direct output, which is of some help when using digital gear with the direct out instead the balanced one.


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